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And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5)


The typical Trinitarian understanding of this verse is predicated upon the notion that the glory that Jesus had with God before the world began necessitates Jesus' literal (pre)existence, with God, before the world began. This is, of course, a completely literal understanding of these words, and would be how most of us would understand it were it spoken to us by someone today, in English. But is this completely literal understanding of this verse how Jesus meant it? Is it how the disciples understood it? I hold that it is not. There are plain indications in the immediate context that suggest a literal interpretation is not what was intended by Jesus.

 

Keep in mind that Trinitarians teach that Jesus was "...of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead..." (Council of Chalcedon).

 

Verse 2: ...even as thou gavest him authority ...

 

We see here that Jesus' authority was derived. It was given to him by the Father. Therefore he cannot be of "one substance with the Father".

 

Verse 3: And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ.

 

Notice that Jesus calls God, "...the ONLY true God..." He refers to himself as "Jesus the Anointed (Christ)."

 

At this point, even if we grant for the sake of argument that Jesus (pre)existed in heaven with God before he came to earth, it is clear that he was NOT "of one substance with the Father". His authority is derived, therefore he is below the Father in rank and substance. This is NOT the Trinitarian position. This is, however, the position of certain Greek fathers that I would label as "proto-trinitarian" who laid the philosophical groundwork that led to the doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined at the Council of Chalcedon, e.g. Justin Martyr and Origen, among others.

 

Jesus says he was "sent" by God. Of course, Trinitarians take "sent" to mean that Jesus was "sent" from his literal (pre)existence in heaven and was born on earth as a man, who was also God. Yet Jesus CANNOT be God because he says the Father is the ONLY true God. The Trinitarian understanding of the word, "sent" cannot be how Jesus uses the word, for the following reasons.

 

  • Verse 14: I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Jesus says the disciples are not of the world EVEN AS Jesus is not of the world. If Trinitarians are to be consistent, then they would have to hold that the disciples also (pre)existed in heaven before the world was made.

 

  • In verse 16 Jesus again says, "They are not of the world even as I am not of the world."

 

  • Verse 18: As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world.
     

The disciples were "sent into the world" JUST LIKE Jesus was "sent into the world." Wouldn't that then mean that they (pre)existed just like Jesus did?
 

  • In verse 21 Jesus, speaking of those who would believe through the words of the apostles says, "...that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me."

 

Here Jesus prays that all believers would be one "in us" - that is Jesus and the Father - EVEN AS the Father is in Jesus, and Jesus in the Father SO THAT the world would believe that the Father had "sent" Jesus.

 

  • Again in verse 23 Jesus says, "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me."

 

Jesus says that the disciples are "not of the world", are "sent into the world" and are to be "one in us" IN THE SAME WAY ("even as") that Jesus is "not of the world", is "sent into the world", and is one with the Father - "Father in me, and I in thee". If, therefore, the Trinitarian holds that the disciples did not (pre)exist in heaven before they were born on earth, then he is not accounting for Jesus' logical equation - "even as" - when believing that Jesus (pre)existed.

 

It's becoming clear that "sent" to earth from a (pre)existence in heaven is NOT how Jesus is using the term. What he probably means is that he was sent by God the Father, the ONLY true God, to minister to Israel. The "sending" occurred at Jesus' baptism at the Jordan, and refers to the approximately 3 and a half years of his ministry to that nation.

 

At this point, while we have not yet dealt specifically with the idea of Jesus' (pre)existence that verse 17 might imply, we have removed much of the contextual support for the Trinitarian interpretation. If Jesus indeed (pre)existed, he was not coequal in substance with God, the Father. Furthermore, his "sending" and "oneness" with God is the same kind of sending" and "oneness" that applies to the disciples as well. So either the disciples (pre)existed in the same way as Jesus did, or neither the disciples nor Jesus literally (pre)existed, but were "sent" in some other sense.

 

Luke 9:1-2 says,

 

"And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases and he SENT THEM OUT to preach the kingdom of God and to heal."


Mathew 10:5-6 says,

 

"These twelve Jesus SENT OUT, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

I submit that this is what Jesus is referring to when he says, "even so sent I them into the world." Because Jesus equated his own "sending" with his "sending" of the disciples, I conclude that when Jesus says that he was sent by the Father, the only true God, he is speaking of his mission to Israel.

 

Now, concerning things that "existed" before the world began. Remember that Romans 4:17 states, "God, who ... calleth those things which be not as though they were..."

 

  • 2 Timothy 1:9: ...who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity...


The grace of God was granted to "us" from all eternity. Does that mean that the "us" actually existed from all eternity? No, most of us believe that we were foreknown by God - our existence was planned by Him - before we actually existed.
 

  • Speaking of Jesus, Peter says, "He was destined (or foreknown) before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times..." (I Peter 1:20)

 

Notice that when Trinitarians speak of how WE are "foreknown" it's not literal; actual existence is not required, but when they speak of Jesus being "foreknown" it's literal, Jesus was literally existent and thus "foreknown". Same word, different content, depending on who is being spoken of.

 

  • Ephesians 1:4: ...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

 

"We" and "us" were chosen before the foundation of the world. Does this mean that "we" existed before the foundation of the world? Most of us do not make the jump from the existence of "us" in the mind of God to actual. literal existence before the foundation of the world.

 

  • Rev 13:8 speaks of "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

 

The Lamb wasn't ACTUALLY slain from the foundation of the world, he was slain in about 30AD. Notice that it literally says, "...slain from the foundation of the world." It doesn't mean what it literally says, it means that it was in God's mind from the foundation of the world, it was God's plan from the foundation of the world that the Lamb would be slain.

 

As has already been explained, the ancient Jews had no technical language or specialized vocabulary to speak about abstract or metaphysical concepts. When speaking of abstract concepts, they would use concrete and pictorial terminology. Thus what appears to us to be explicit statements of reality are actually speaking of things that do not yet exist in reality. Their existence is thought of (in the Jewish manner of thinking) as being in the mind of God only, certain to be realized, but not actually existing. The above examples serve to illustrate this.

 

  • Another example is 17:11 where Jesus says, "And now I am no more in the world..."

 

Jesus was obviously still in the world when he said this. He is speaking in the present tense about something that hasn't happened yet. He is calling those things which be not as though they were.

 

And so, the fact that Jesus is using literal terminology doesn't necessarily indicate that his meaning is literal.

 

Therefore, another possibility for what we could add to the above list of things that existed in the mind of God before the world began would be Jesus' glory as well as the Father's love for Jesus - verse 24: You loved Me before the foundation of the world. Jesus' glory as well as the Father's love for him does not require Jesus' literal (pre)existence, it requires only the existence of Jesus in the mind/plan/will/intention of God.

 

  • 17:5: ... and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

 

Jesus is here praying that he would receive the glory he did not yet have ("and now"), but which had been God's plan to give him before the world was made. The glory, and the plan to give it to Jesus, was "with thee" (God) before the world was made. Without getting into exactly what this glory consisted of, we can say with some confidence that it did NOT consist of some kind of (pre)existent Godhood or Deity because in verse 22 Jesus gave that glory to the disciples: "The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them..."

 

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